Riley's World

Michael, I agree with your thoughts that tithing and giving is a must.

If people want to split hairs over the amount and say that "10% isn't in the new testament", the response always should be "you're right, the new testament doesn't say 10%. It says EVERYTHING. As in, keeping NOTHING FOR YOURSELF! EVERYTHING. All we're asking for is 10%. Is that too much?"

The only problem I have with your thoughts here are the concepts of us "commanding" and "enforcing". The tithe as some sort of requirement. That is where, I fear, we cross the line into phariseeism.

Let's not shut the kingdom of God in people's faces by laying extra burden on them. HOWEVER:

If, in couseling and teaching in LOVE and with PATIENCE someone mentions that they are having a hard time connecting with God, or just aren't experiencing God's blessing in their life, bringing up things such as the disciplines of Prayer, Scripture study, fellowship, worship, outreach, tithing (or giving, generously), serving, forgiveness, etc, etc, etc... is the order of the day.

I often wonder how many years of counselling could be avoided by simply teaching and EXHORTING eachother to these disciplines.

I have a lot of thoughts and I am not sure exactly which ones directly apply to your question/argument. I appreciate the clarification from the last post, as I was a little bit confused as to what you were actually asking in the last one. I will try and ask a few questions and give a few thoughts -- hopefully it will move things forward.

When you say "enforceable standard" are you talking about enforceable in terms of either the church discipline process or not allowing someone to be a member if it got that far (i.e. 1 Cor 5:9-13, 1 Thess 3:11-15, and Titus 3:10-11 type issues) or are you just talking "enforceable" in the sense that it is fair game to challenge any one with it, not necessarily including any man-made consequences?

Maybe it comes to this -- Would you elevate not tithing above many/most other sins (except the extreme church discipline sins)? The reason I ask is that, in one sesne, we are all "living in sin." I am sure if someone tried they could come up with a top ten list for me (and for you, and for almost anyone) of ways that I sin on a regular and ongoing basis. However, people don't generally tell me that I am living in sin or try to "enforce" that I not lose my temper or waste time or fail to discipline Madeline when she has clearly disobeyed -- things that all can be sin at some level or another.

Murder is an extreme example because there is a clear, permanent victim. The same may be true of other extreme crimes/sins. There are sins that sometimes I purposely don't really try and stop people from doing (This is assuming they have been warned or told at least once that it doesn't honor God so they are not going forth in ignorance and that they haven't asked for help to stop sinning). Often not stoping someone and letting them experience the natural consequences of their sins or poor choices is the best way to get them to change. But we do definitely need to make sure people know what the Word says about various areas, and give people help if they want help to obey.

I would say that if someone choses not to tithe, it is between them and God. God will probably be convicting them on it. They will experience the consequence of not getting the extra blessings tithing will bring. Then again, God may be convicting them first in other areas that He sees are more immedieatley important. When we become Christians, or even at points further along in our walk, God chooses to bring us to the point of "working on" different sin areas.

Leadership is a different issue, because like I said above, it is totally right for the pastors to hold whatever standard they wish for the leaders.

Oh, and by my last long paragraph when I said it was between them and God, I didn't mean that we can't teach people about tithing or challenge people or help them if they want it -- I just don't think it falls into one of those extreme areas that require church-disciple style consequences or any other type of man made consequences...and man made consequences are totally what comes to mind when I think of the word "enforce."

Just adding to what Matt shared, in perhaps a more foceful manner because what have I got to lose?:

"enforceable standard?"

What are you going to do, have "security" drag people out of church or prevent them from entering? Why not annually publish what each person gives, like the church I grew up in did? That was a real soul winner? Do it weekly. Why not?

"tithing vs. murder?"

I get the hypothetical, but are we even on the same plane? Ever heard of the 10 commandments? Is tithing mentioned? And of the Scriptures you cited, how significant are those passages in the scheme of things? How many are cited in the New Testament? Context counts for a lot.

"So why don't we do this with all sins?"

Maybe because you're supposed to be winsome so that you may win some. Is your church a hospital for those who are hurting or a private club exclusive only to those who know the secret handshake?

The "core truth" that Christ taught? The only new commandment that Christ taught is to love one another as he loved us -- John 13:34, creating a new standard above that of the Old Testament, and thus fulfilling it. That's the summation of "all that I commanded you." Jesus didn't teach a legalistic 10%. He preached freely giving 100% -- and that may mean sacrificing to pick up the slack of those who aren't giving 10%. How much extra do you have in your checking account? Are you withholding because some others didn't give their 10%?

And the 1st century church didn't practice the 10% rule either, according to the Acts of the Apostles. What they did was meet "needs." So why fixate on the 10%?

Maybe you're budget isn't exactly a "need." Maybe your budget is off. Maybe you should cut your budget. Maybe your salary -- or support or whatever -- or the salaries of the pastors aren't "needs." Maybe the heating bill and the water bill aren't "needs." Maybe you've bought into the traditional church tradition that people are supposed to give 10% to "church", as in the establishment/bureaucracy of the institution, instead of actually giving to meet real human needs.

So is giving from one's finite resources to feed a family, or to help those afflicted by a hurricane, or to a destitute missionary in Sibera or in St. Louis or Sao Paulo any less valuable than giving to pay for the paper clips and postage or other items deemed to be "needs" by a church's all-wise budget committee? Is a person wrong if he decides to give his money to help those ravaged by a hurricane instead of helping to pay the church's phone bill? Frankly, sometimes I think church budget committees have a similar mindset to government officials levying a "tax" of 10% on their membership.

Maybe you're failing to appreciate the sacrifices that people are already making. Maybe you're failing to see all that God is doing because you are fixating on the financials.

Discount what I say. I'm just a nobody asking questions.

If you read research about why people don't come to church, one of the top reasons, if not the No. 1 reason, is because they think the church is only interested in their money. So why do we consistently fall into that trap by making it an issue?

By all means, encourage saints to be faithful in giving and to be generous, but, above all, "Trust in the Lord and do good" (Psalm 37:3) and let God do the "enforcing" and be the judge. Be thankful for the money that people are giving.

Wow Dan. I appreciate the forcefullness, but I am uncertain as the tone. Did I hit a nerve?

To answer your specific questions:
1) The extra in my checking account is $100-$150, which is a mandated savings pad that the Lord and I put together to prevent possible bookkeeping errors that (as it did once) caused an NSF check.
2) I've not stopped or reduced my giving because others are not tithing. No, rather I give a lot out of my limited means. Not to boast, but I'm glad the Lord has led me to such a degree in this area it has caused me to itemize my taxes as a result of where He wanted me to be generous. [And yes, I tithe 10% gross income to Stonebrook.]

Why do I share that, just so that you know I'm not afraid to have my own bookkeeping scrutinized.

To answer your other questions in general, I think you bring up something I'd not quite thought about. I appreciate that. Perhaps I should be asking the question, "How can we effectively and winsomely get saints to be more generous?" (Rather than talking about an enforceable standard.)

So, if the base standard is to be generous and that is allowed to be defined by the needs we see around us, where does that leave the church? Right now for Stonebrook that would mean the church budget would solely supported by leaders (tithe being madated there as Kirsten commented on) and those who see the need. In in every year I've helped the Elders (not a budget committee) work on the budget, the neads have always exceeded the means. And we're not talking trivial things like a porche for a pastor, we're talking about extra ways the church budget can give or help in funding good things as defined by the Bible or the direction setforth by the Elders.

And no, I'm not fixated on the budget problem, nor caught up and missing the extra sacrifical work of the saints, I'm just trying to ask the question and clarify my own Biblical Understanding. Thanks to your comments, I have a better idea of where our Pastors are coming from.

I appologize if my asking these questions gives you the impression I'm not thankful for the current giving or what we are able to do in the church budget.

And yes, I've thought about my own salary and sacrificing that to make up the difference. Unfortunately, even if I did that, we'd only be talking upto 50% on that $45,800 shortfall. (And there I'm not sure the Elders would agree this is the best area to cut. And keep in mind, cuts are on the way, they are not out of the realm of possibility.)

And then the broad question comes to mind in this discussion, if someone is in your hospital and not getting better? What then? What is the most loving thing to do?

Epifany, I had upon reflecting on the comments above:

Enforceable Standard = The base standard that I would lovingly and winsomely call every believer to.

That is to say, the base and standard conviction every believer ought to have. This doens't include any biblical convictions that are optional or illdefined due to Scriptual uncertainty or lack of clarity.

Some would say don't use the word enforcable. Well, I was grasping for words to mean what I set it equal to you. If you think enforcable isn't loving, well, that would be a preceptual mis-understanding since I don't see something as enforceable deliberatly lacking or having love. In the context of this discussion, becuase we are talking about appropiate Biblical views, being loving ought to have been implied. Sorry that it was not based upon my choice of words.

So when I'm asking about the Enforceable Standard on being generious, I was intending to ask, "What is the base conviction every believer should have?" And in context of this discussion, "Does that mean to Tithe to the Church?" or in general, "What is the appropiate outworking of that, if any that can be concretely defined?"

Yeah, I am not sure "enforceable" is really the word you are looking for, Michael. Here are the two main definitions for encforceable from one dictionary entry:

1. To compel observance of or obedience to: enforce a law.
2. To impose (a kind of behavior, for example): enforce military discipline.

Looking at a base conviction level is way different in my mind than "compeling" or "imposing" a certain behavior.

Here's another example. I think most of us would agree that it is a base conviction that believers should be baptized. We definitely encourage everyone in this direction, and even exhort people to obey. But we don't "compel" or "impose" that someone get baptized nor do we "enforce" it. We wait for people to decide in their hearts that they want to obey God in this area, whether it is five minutes or five decades after they get saved. We don't just push people into the river or pool and tell them they have to go thru with getting baptized.

Giving or tithing is kind of the same way, in my mind. Let's teach and exhort about it. I think it is even reasonable to say that giving a tithe or more is one mark of maturity (one among many -- someone could be generally mature yet weak in this area, or mature in this area but weak in most others). But we don't compel anyone to do it by sitting them down with their checkbook and telling them they have to write out that check.

In some ways I guess you could say that the real mark of maturity and the conviction all Christians should be striving for is, as has been aluded to by other commentors, is seeing all of our money as God's, and giving sacrificially. It is so easy to feel like you give God His 10% and the rest is your own. I think God would be more honored in some ways by a person giving 5% or 8% with a genuine heart of worship and sacrifice than by a person who gave 10% easily and with no thought of honoring God with the rest of their money.

Honestly, Tithing is easy for me. It is like paying taxes or bills. It just comes out of the budget spreadsheet like any other obligation. It is almost "too easy" that an amount like 10% for a tithe is given -- you hardly have to think about it. I feel like I exercise much more faith and seek God much more about my other giving (staffers, missionaries, building campaign, etc) because no standard amount is prescribed. I/we have to seek God to just ask Him for an amount, and some times it is large and some times it is small. Maybe if we didn't just give a number to everyone of 10% for the tithe, more people would really seek God on their amount, and a greater number of people would give more than 10%. Maybe not, but it is an interesting thought.

Michael, I apologize for my tone being too rough. Really, I do. I'm sort of in a funk right now about church and ministry and I took out on you, I guess. And I didn't mean to be accusatory of you. I was asking rhetorical questions.

I have sat in on too many of these meetings where this subject comes up and the "blame" is almost always laid on the congregation. GCM is not immune from this either. The spotlight is rarely turned inward on the leadership or the traditional methodology of church. My church currently publishes in the bulletin each week how much it "takes in" every Sunday. The purpose, I guess, is to spur giving. But giving hasn;t increase because of it. In fact, it appears giving might be down a little. We fall short almost every Sunday. And I think it communicates two wrong messages, especially to new people: One, that we care a lot about money and, two that we are incompetent and incapable of raising enough money to meet our budgetary needs. Both messages make us look like losers and don't communicate trust in God.

I've protested, but to no avail.

In a way, it's a marketplace question: If the saints aren't giving enough, then why not? Maybe the message isn't being communicated. And what is the message exactly? To give more money, or to give more of our heart? Maybe the budget is wrong? Maybe our standard of measurement is wrong? Maybe we aren't attracting enough new people and discipling them rapidly enough (turning them into givers) to meet our growth in spending/ministry. Maybe that's where we should look. Maybe we're too ambitious in our programming. Maybe God would actually like us to slow down and cultivate faithfulness with what we already have.

Hi