Comments for Not Our Home

Comment on The Lamb’s Book of Life by Matt Heerema

Matt Heerema — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 18:24:39 +0000

Dave, sorry bro, I just found this comment in a spam folder!

I hope your small group went well. You'll see I posted on Hebrews 6 recently as well.

See ya around.

Comment on Faith is not a choice by Bettina

Bettina — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 03:29:42 +0000

You're welcome. Could you explain that analogy a little more, though? Is faith in God supposed to be like believing the sun won't come up tomorrow? That would be like turning your worldview almost completely around rather than "shifting" it.

Comment on What is Hebrews 6 saying? by Matt Heerema

Matt Heerema — Sat, 02 Jan 2010 05:44:24 +0000

In this case it depends on what you do with Romans 9. Who is Israel? I've heard strong arguments for both sides here. It seems fairly clear to me that Israel are all God's elect (gentiles included).

Comment on What is Hebrews 6 saying? by Brian Peterson

Brian Peterson — Fri, 01 Jan 2010 17:33:55 +0000

In the oldest known commentary on this passage, Tertullian, elaborates on this passage (note especially how he sees v.12, "who who first trusted in the Messiah", and then v.13, "In Him you also trusted."

"Again, what Christ do the following words announce, when the Apostle says, 'That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ?' Now, who could have first trusted — ie., previously trusted — in God, before His advent, besides Jews to whom Christ was previously announced from the beginning? He who was thus foretold, was also foretrusted. Hence, the Apostle refers the statement to himself, that is, to the Jews, in order that he may draw a distinction with respect to the Gentiles, (when he goes on to say:) 'In whom you also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel (of your salvation); in whom ye believed, and were sealed with His Holy Spirit of promise'." (Tertullian, Against Marcion, xvii)

Comment on Faith is not a choice by Matt Heerema

Matt Heerema — Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:41:16 +0000

Good way to put it. But what you are describing isn't choice, it's reception. "Open to the powers that shift it."

And in this way I agree with you.

A good analogy I've heard (and showed up in the comments section at the other blog) was this: "I dare you to try and believe that the sun will not come up tomorrow."

There is no way you could do that sincerely UNLESS someone with undeniable authority proved conclusively (showed you undeniable proof) that it won't happen. And at that point, what is the choice?

Thanks for thinking hard and speaking out, Betina!

Comment on Faith is not a choice by Bettina

Bettina — Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:12:48 +0000

I agree that faith does not rely solely on an individual's actions or convictions, that outside forces also work to shape it. But the individual does play some part, and in that way faith is a choice. How does one's perception of reality shift if the person, even if he doesn't do the shifting himself, isn't at least open to the powers that would shift it for him?

Comment on What is Hebrews 6 saying? by Matt Heerema

Matt Heerema — Thu, 31 Dec 2009 17:38:33 +0000

I'd also prefer it if you used a name here rather than an alias… why hide? This is a genuine place for brotherly conversation. I will moderate ad hominem attack. You have nothing to fear.

Comment on What is Hebrews 6 saying? by Matt Heerema

Matt Heerema — Thu, 31 Dec 2009 17:36:29 +0000

I think it depends, then, on your view of faith/belief. The (logically consistent and scriptural) argument for perseverance of the saints says that if you are able to renounce your "faith" you never had it in the first place.

Comment on What is Hebrews 6 saying? by Classical Arminian

Classical Arminian — Thu, 31 Dec 2009 15:27:30 +0000

On the other hand, those espousing any other position must realize that there view was not articulated before Calvin in the 16th century. If "once saved always saved" or "perseverance of the saints" was the teaching of the apostles, then why did none of their predecessors (the first post apostolic teachers and writers) teach it to the infant church? Here's a short article on this point:

http://www.fwponline.cc/v21n1/v21n1witzki.html

Comment on What is Hebrews 6 saying? by Classical Arminian

Classical Arminian — Thu, 31 Dec 2009 15:26:43 +0000

I'm perplexed as to how interpretation 1 can be dismissed so easily. Is it so that the breadth of "Scripture clearly denies this argument?" There are an abundance of Scriptures that warn believers to persevere in the faith (and also warn of the consequences of not remaining in Christ):

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, (Heb 3)

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. (Rom 11)